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 ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~

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PostSubject: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   February 9th 2011, 2:17 pm

Some Knife Fighting information I found and agree with.

Quote :
The only place where the knife fighting fantasy exists
is in the martial arts. There is no such thing in the modern
civilized world. In legal terms it is attempted murder,
assault with a deadly weapon or homicide. To the streetfighter
it is assassination, not a "fight" at all. To the criminal it is a tool
for robbery Everyone else considers it abhorrent macho stupidity.
Marc 'The Animal' MacYoung


Knife fighting lies

On this page:

Lie #1
You're going to have time to draw your own weapon |
Lie #2
It's going to be a knife "fight" |
Lie #3
But what if I'm cornered?" |
Lie #4
He's going to attack you a specific way |
Lie# 5
And then he is going to passively stand there while you carve him |
Lie #6
Trapping and stripping |
Lie #7
Bio-mechanical cutting |
Lie #8
Knowing how to stickfight means you know how to knife fight |
Lie #9
Knowing kali makes you a knife fighter |
Lie #10
Grappling with a knife |
Lie #11
The knife is an extension of your hand |
Lie #12
There is such a thing as a "master knife fighter" |
Lie #13
That this is a "fight" at all |
Lie #14
Expect to get cut |
Lie #15
The FMA are the ultimate knife fighting systems |
Lie #16
It's easy to disarm an armed opponent |
Lie #17
You can successfully fight an armed attacker |
Lie #18
Drills teach you how to knife fight |
Lie #19
You can use a knife on another human being without legal repercussions

There are many so-called "experts" who claim to be able to teach you either knife fighting or defense against a knife. The problem is that most of them are just teaching regurgitated martial arts, usually from the Philippines. While I have lots of respect for the martial arts of other lands, the truth is that you live where you do. Odds are you are not in a "knife culture." And that means that whatever you do regarding knives must:

A) Work to keep you alive against how you are likely to be attacked by a knife in your homeland
and
B) If it does work, not put you in prison for murder or manslaughter

While B is important, it only becomes an issue if you survive A. Unfortunately, based on a lot of what I have been seeing taught with my own eyes or encountered while working with the students of these self-proclaimed "knife experts" getting past A is going to be a whole lot tougher than you think. Quite simply, most knife assaults are assassination attempts...how they occur is significantly different than how one "knife fights." While I express my opinions on other knife instructors elsewhere, what this page is for is to help you avoid some of the more common pitfalls with what is being taught out there.

Oh yeah, one more thing, always remember...it's your ass on the line out there, so don't let *anybody* tell you that you don't have the right to ask about these things or think for yourself.

Lie #1 You're going to have time to draw your own weapon
In all the times I have been assaulted with knives, only once was I able to pull my own weapon. And I didn't carry a folder, I carried a sheath knife that I had repeatedly practiced speed drawing. I could, in a crisis, draw and deploy a knife in just over one second. This is not idle boasting, I demonstrate it in many of my videos. And yet, despite this incredible rate of speed, when attacked I didn't have time to draw my knife except for the one time that I leaped wildly backwards to gain space.

That's because by the time I realized there was a knife involved, I was already being attacked.

Not long ago I was involved in a discussion about a young biker who had been blown off his barstool by a shotgun blast. What had disturbed me is that he had been involved in an altercation in the bar earlier and had not withdrawn, thereby signing his death warrant. However, an Australian bouncer rightfully commented that the ages between 18 and 24 is where these kinds of lifesaving lessons tend to be learned -- and those who don't learn them, or aren't lucky, never get any older. It is only the young and inexperienced who make certain kinds of mistakes.

Most knife "fighting" training is predicated on the assumption that you have somehow managed to get a blade in your hand. Quite honestly, if you you are attacked by either a young punk, a total incompetent or someone who was brandishing the knife in order to get you to back off then there is a chance that you might have time to draw you own weapon.

However, if you are dealing with anyone with any experience, street savvy or cunning, you will not be able to draw your own blade when you are attacked. Against such a person, there is just not enough time. He won't show his weapon before he attacks. That's because those who are foolish enough to brandish weapons in places where weapons are common don't live long themselves.

And yet that is exactly what you are expecting him to do so you can draw your own knife and defeat him.


Lie #2 It's going to be a knife "fight"
Shortly before his death, I was sitting at the NRA convention in Phoenix with Col. Rex Applegate, the father of American military knife work. We were discussing the fad of "knife fighting" that we, as old timers in the subject, were both amused and bemused with. He summed up the problem with what was being promoted as knife work as "They're teaching dueling." By this he meant standing there toe-to-toe, with the same weapons and trying to kill each other like civilized gentlemen.

Not to be the bearer of bad tidings, but the reason someone uses a weapon on another human being is to stack the deck in their favor. People don't use weapons to fight, they use weapons to win. The absolute last thing any attacker wants to do is to fight you with equal weapons. If he was looking for a fight he wouldn't have attacked you with a weapon in the first place. And if he knows you have a knife, he is going to attack you with a bigger and better weapon to keep you from winning.

Personally one of the things that I really respect the Dog Brothers for doing is experimenting with mismatched weapon contests. *That* is a reality. You pull a knife and he gets a club. You pull a club and he pulls a gun. There is no fighting involved, you use the superior weapon to disable your opponent. And you do it before he does it to you.

As far as your attacker is concerned this is not a fight, it is an assassination. He is not going to want to stand there with you and hack it out. Unfortunately, this is exactly the fantasy that many so-called knife fighting instructors promote. The absolute last thing you want to do is to try to "fight."

Another reason that you need to chase the idea of "knife fighting" out of your head is that in many states there is this attitude that "consensual fights" are best resolved by throwing both of the morons who participated in jail. It is true, you have the right to defend yourself against attack, but if you decide to fight someone, it isn't self-defense anymore, and if you use a lethal weapon on someone in a "knife fight" that you could have avoided, then you have yourself a gang of problems ahead of you. That is unless you like being gang raped in a prison shower.


Lie #3 "But what if I'm cornered?"
Common sense tells us that knife fighting is dangerous. And yet, like a dog circling a bear's den -- where a smarter part of it knows not to wake that sleeping bear, yet another, more instinctive part is urging it on -- many people who train in knife fight have the same torn desires. One of the biggest issues goading these people is Do they have what it takes?".

Unlike dogs, however, human beings have the ability for self-deception and rationalization. And one of the ways that we human fool ourselves is that we fantasize about situations where we would be able to give ourselves permission to find out if we "have it." Such people strongly resist the idea that knife fighting is a bad place to go. It is literally as though they are seeking to find an excuse.

One of the strongest indicator of this fantasy mindset is the reaction when they are told to flee instead of fighting with a knife, literally the next words out of their mouths will be "But what if I am cornered and can't run?" There are many such similar excuses that they can use and they all start with the word but: "but what if I am with old people or children and can't run?", "But what if I am out of shape (or infirm) and can't run?" In all cases, of the millions of possible options available they always seem to focus on the one that requires them to engage in a knife fight.

The truth is, it is incredibly difficult to "corner" someone who is determined to leave. Basically because he will use your face as traction or squirt through the smallest of holes. However, if the person's desire not to engage in physical violence is stronger than his desire to leave, it is very easy to corner someone. If you ask any experienced LEO, corrections officer or mental ward orderly which they would rather face, a person who wants to fight them, or someone who will climb over them to escape, to a man they will tell you the former. They know the latter will hurt them more and be harder to defeat. That's because that person is fully committed to a course of action. Whereas a person who has allowed themselves to be "cornered" will still be of a divided heart and therefore not able to fight at full capacity. And that is exactly what it will take in order to survive such a "no win" situation that they have put themselves into.

That is the true danger of this kind of thinking. Because part of you does want to know if you have what it takes and "can do it," you can unconsciously trick yourself into not taking appropriate precautions and ignoring danger signals. Your pride and ego will blind you about what you are doing until it is too late. Once there however, your life -- if it continues past that moment -- will be utterly destroyed.

Don't fantasize about being in a situation where you have to use your knife fighting skills, because you can end up tricking yourself into just such a situation by blinding yourself to possible escape routes.


Lie #4 He's going to attack you a certain way
I have a demonstration that I do during knife seminars. I find the highest ranking Filipino martial arts player present and I tell him to check and pass my attack. I then proceed to do a well balanced, fast, cautious attack. This is a legitimate and fast attack, and they tend to block it. I then tell them to block the another attack - and aiming for the same target - I do a prison yard rush on them. To this day I have gutted everyone of them.

The reason? They are entirely different knife attacks.

Many years ago Don Pentacost wrote a book called Put 'em down, take 'em out: Knife fighting from Folsom Prison. In it Don pointed out how actual knife homicides occurred in maximum security prisons. Putting it mildly, he outraged countless martial artists by what he said in that book, who to this day still disparage the book. Except for one thing, that prison yard rush is exactly what I use to gut so many of them. It is not a sophisticated attack, but it is a very common way to attack someone with a knife in the USA.

The FMA are predicated on one basic assumption, that you will be fighting a trained knifer. The problem with that assumption is that not everyone attacks the way that someone trained in the FMA will attack you. This is problematic because the counters of the FMA are designed to work against how people with FMA training will attack you. Against these kinds of attacks, the counters work great.

The bottom line is, in the Western culture, someone who is attacking you with a knife is attempting to murder you. They are not going to be hanging back cautiously in fear of your weapon and your fighting skill. Instead they will usually attempt to overwhelm you and quickly kill you by whatever means necessary. Such an attack is totally different than the well balanced and liquid attacks of the FMA. And that is totally different than how someone from Italy will attack you with a knife. And that is different than how someone from Venezuela is going to attack with a knife. And that is different than how someone from Brazil will attack you with a knife. And that is different than how someone from South Africa is going to attack you with a knife. And that is totally different than how someone from China will attack you with a knife. I know because I have traveled around the world and encountered knife fighting systems from all of those places.

I know that those who are selling knife fighting training and others who haven't seen these other systems will deny it, but: Just because you know how to handle one, doesn't mean you know how to handle the others. Each are different, and each are equally lethal. And those differences CAN kill you.

Lie# 5 And then he is going to passively stand there while you carve him
Just like in the magazines and in the training drills.

What few people realize is that a wild defensive flailing while holding a knife, is just as dangerous and damaging as an intentional strike. In fact, it is often more dangerous because of its unpredictable nature. If you are indeed tearing someone up, his defensive moves can hurt you badly -- especially if he is flailing around trying to stop your next attack.

I have seen a serious over emphasis on defense before closing and a serious lack of emphasis after closing -- either one will get you mauled, if not killed.

BTW, this is over and above the fact that he might not be willing to let you carve him and he might do something different after his initial attack fails...like attack again in a different manner. Or if his first one did succeed to attack again.

Fights are never static...and his ability to move is his ability to hurt you...and do it before you have a chance to do your really cool moves.


Lie #6 Trapping and stripping
Defanging the snake is something that is commonly taught at higher levels. Subtle and complex moves are drilled into the advanced students so they can either knock the knife out of their attacker's hands or carve the knife out of his hand.

There's just one problem with it, you have a snowball's chance in hell of making it work. The truth is these are what we call "green moves." They have very little to do with actual knife defense and very much to do with keeping the student involved in the system and paying money (which in the U.S. is green, ergo the term green move). Such moves rely on the attacker moving "just so" and thereby putting you in the perfect position to do the move.

The thing is even the older masters tell you that these moves are purely opportunity and chance. And yet, these moves are often over-emphasized at the expense of more effective altercation ending moves. In short, they train in elements as though they were the most important element or the highest degree of the art. Call me silly, but I feel that getting out alive is the best proof of skill, not how many subtle and complex moves you know.

In truth, unless an attacker is drunk or pathetically slow the odds of successfully catching his hand and doing all these marvelous joint locks or controlling moves are very, very slim. Furthermore you are not going to be able to effectively control a wildly struggling opponent's arm with only one hand. Odds are that he will be able to wiggle free of it and cause you some degree of damage.

This does, however, bring up an issue that I made a passing reference to previously. I often see too much of an emphasis placed on controlling your opponent so you can safely close. The raw reality is that you cannot effectively control someone out at such a distance. While there are things that you can do that will give you momentary advantage, it is nowhere complete control. Unfortunately, I have seen too many people try to establish control so they can enter safely. It has been my experience, that you cannot do this. What you can do is create an opening, enter and then prevent him from countering. But if you attempt to hang back until it is "safe" to enter, then you will take more damage staying back trying to create the perfect solution.

On top of the already unpleasant realities, there is something else that is far more important. Okay, so it's only important if you *don't* like taking showers with lots of guys with tattoos. Once you disarm an opponent whether by leverage or your own blade, if you continue to use the knife on him, that isn't self-defense anymore. At the very least it is attempted murder, probably manslaughter and -- if your lawyer isn't very good -- you can possibly go down for murder if the DA is having a particularly bad hair day.

Lie #7 Bio-mechanical cutting
Technically this should not be on this page at all: First because I respect Bram Frank, and secondly -- as far as it goes -- it is a sound concept. The simple fact is that cutting tendons, muscles and nerves does work. A slash will destroy/hinder motor abilities. There is no argument about it's effectiveness.

However, like Jeff Cooper's well-thought out and considered "Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six" was bastardized by Bubbas and "gun nuts" into a clich?of ignorance of the legal issues, I have seen this idea seriously misinterpreted and bandied about by those ignorant of the laws, precedents and legal nuances regarding use of lethal force. Much of the discussion about using a knife to inflict this kind of wound is the same fantasy thinking as when a toothless redneck, after being called upon his statement of "ah'd jes shoot 'im," responds with the Cooperism. Neither of them are taking into account that the law has a slightly different outlook about their use of a lethal force weapon on another human being.

In the eyes of the law, a knife is a deadly weapon. It's use on another human is classified as lethal force. And the only time you are justified in using lethal force -- in most states -- is when you are "in immediate threat of death or grievous bodily injury." In otherwords, if it is bad enough where you have to use a knife on someone, it is bad enough to kill them. If you are at a point where you are just trying to wound someone, you are not in enough danger to justify using a knife.

This is the ghost of the old "shooting him in the leg" misconception so many people had. People would shoot an intruder and then tell the police that they were only trying to wound him. This left them open to all kinds of criminal charges and civil litigation -- from the person they had shot. There is a natural hesitation to take another human life. However, when this manifests in seeking to "wound" someone in order to make them "go away" you end up in a very dangerous legal grey area. And the fact that you were even in a situation where a knife was used is going to make that grey area more dangerous. Remember, a knife is considered a thug's weapon.


Lie #8 Knowing how to stickfight means you know how to knife fight
I have a friend Randy Brannan who is a physicist. The man is basically brilliant and when he starts talking physics, I shut up, sit down and listen, because he knows what he is talking about. Thing is Randy and I used to fight with broadswords at the California Renaissance Faire. These live-steel bouts were not only unchoreographed, but were basically wild brawls (it helps to understand that at the time, we were both young and often slightly drunk -- conditions known to produce "it seemed like a good idea at the time" thinking). Later Randy would go out and study Kali/Escrima. Having experience using a far wider range of weapons than many of his fellow kali students gave him a slightly different perspective. One day while discussing this very subject he said:

People claim that a stick is an average weapon. That it has similarities to all weapons. This is true, it does. But then they claim that if you know how to use a stick you can use all weapons. This is not true. What they don't understand is that the differences are just as important as the similarities.

Give that man a cigar...although I might tweak his last sentence to read "what they don't want to understand." Just because you are proficient with one type of tool doesn't automatically mean you can translate that skill to another weapon. And yet a great many people tell themselves that this is the case, in fact, they rather emphatically insist is it so. Apparently the appeal of being a "master of all weapons" is greater than being proficient with just a stick.

The simple truth is that different weapons handle differently. The have different weights, different sizes, different timing, different requirements and different uses. There are indeed certain similarities, but unless you want to end up kneeling in a dark parking lot trying to hold your guts in, you had better stop telling yourself about the similarities and start looking at the differences.

To begin with a stick doesn't have an edge. With blade work the point and the edge are critical components, but not necessarily so with sticks. Edge control is pretty much the indicator between someone who knows how to use a knife and a stick jock trying to tell you that he knows knife work. If you know what to look for you can spot the difference with just one move -- even if it is a fast one. In fact, the faster the move, the more obvious it is.

The physics of a stick do not require this exactness of edge control. This is because a stick is an impact weapon, were as a blade is designed to cut, slice, stab and sometimes, hack. If you do not have your edge on target, then you create a totally different set of physics and reactions other than the one you want.

If you are learning stick fighting then accept that you are learning stick fighting, that is a legitimate pursuit. If you are learning knife work, then you are learning knife work...while there are similarities there are radical differences. Don't tell yourself or allow yourself to be told different. If you don't believe me, try working out with a wide variety of weapons and do the exact same move. These differences especially become manifest when your weapon encounters flesh.


Lie # 9 Knowing kali makes you a knife fighter
Kali, Escrima, Arnis, FMA, all of them have the aura and mystery of being weapons based arts. Deadly, savage arts of the Filipino warriors. Lurid stories about guerrilla actions against Japanese invaders, duels and death matches that the founder of the style was involved in abound.

Quite honestly what these maestros survived is incredible and is more than worthy of kudos. These older gentlemen survived a totally different culture, socio-economic environment, time and, in some cases, a World War and foreign invasion of their homeland.

That having been said however, just because the founder of the system or lineage was a walking piece of bad-assed real-estate doesn't make you one.

They weren't knife fighters, those people were survivors. It's what comes from living a hellishly hard life. While they had physical skill that helped them, what kept them alive, what allowed them to strike fast enough, hard enough and brutally enough wasn't their art -- it was the commitment not to die. It was that grim savagery to do whatever is necessary and to do it faster and harder than the other person that kept them alive. In the lexicon, they had "heart."

Their art just allowed them to do that faster.

Knowing an art doesn't give you that kind of commitment, that kind of ruthlessness, that kind of grim endurance or that willingness to descend into savagery to stay alive. Just knowing the art doesn't make you a knife fighter. You have to have "heart" as well -- that willingness to wade through hell and come out the other side.


Lie #10 Grappling with a knife
I was in Germany with a group of martial artists teaching "street knife work." While demonstrating an empty-handed with one of them, he tackled me and took me to the ground (This is no big deal as when I do demo's I don't allow "courtesy attacks." I insist people attack me like they would were it a real fight -- this occasionally means that I get slugged or taken down. This was one of those times). Anyway, when we hit the floor I realized that there was no way I could contest this guys strength, he was a bull, full of muscle and grappling skill. The thing was I had landed next to a practice knife that I calmly picked up and dragged it across his throat.

We stood up and his eyes were the size of saucers because he realized what the significance of what had just happened. A knife had come out of nowhere and had this been real, he would have been dead. The amazing thing was is there were only a few other people there who did too. On of the bigger proponents of grappling stood there and said, "He tackled you." To which I replied, "Yes, and I slit his throat" "But, he tackled you."

In their minds there was no difference in the levels of damage. The fact that I had been taken down counted the same as a knife across the throat. Personally, I'll take getting slammed to the ground any day over getting my throat slit.

The myth of grappling is that it works everywhere. The fact that it proved so successful in the UFC ring has blinded many people to the fact that there are critical differences between fighting barehanded and fighting with weapons. While empty-hand fighting might easily turn into an endurance marathon, where size, strength, physical shape and ability to endure punishment significantly influence the outcome of an altercation, that is not applicable to weapons work. In that arena, every man bleeds the same.

Oh yeah, remember how I said bio-mechanical cutting did have validity to it about the damage a knife can cause? What makes you think you can keep on fighting with that kind of damage being done to you? All a guy has to do is cut you a few times to seriously reduce your ability to move and then wait while you bleed out. Now the really bad news, being pumped up on adrenalin is going to make that happen faster, the higher your heart rate, the faster you bleed out and lose strength. All he has to do is out wait for your strength to fail before finishing the job.

Do not attempt to "grapple" with a knifer. Once on the ground, you are not guaranteed to be able to control his knife arm well enough to prevent him from carving you up. If it were a barehanded fight, then you can often prevent him from being able to generate enough power to effectively strike you, but a knife doesn't need power, it just needs to touch you. And if you are attempting to control his arm while on the ground, he will wiggle free and repeatedly cut you until you can no longer continue to resist.

Now for the fun news, I know of a small knife being manufactured that is called the "clinch pick." A small concealable -- and easily accessible -- knife, that can be rammed into a grappler's guts and chest three or four times before the grappler knows it is there. Where it is carried makes it nearly impossible for the grappler to prevent its deployment. When you realize he has it, it is too late.



Lie #11 The knife is an extension of your hand
This lie is most often promoted by empty-handed stylists who insist that they can teach you how to either defend yourself against a knife or to use one. Unfortunately, many people who started out in such systems have transferred over to supposed blade arts and continued promoting this often misinterpreted saying.

Empty hand fighting is not the same as weapon fighting -- it requires different body mechanics, different ranges , different timing and -- most importantly -- an emphasis on movement that is not found in most kicking and punching arts. At least not in how they are taught in Westernized countries.

This emphasis on the hand largely stems from the sports influence of modern martial arts. However, the problem is that most empty handed fighters lack the understanding of how to generate force from a moving state, instead seeking to generate force from a stationary/rooted stance and a twisting the hips. While this works for barehanded fighting styles, it fails to address the needs of weapons fighting.

It is my personal belief that the idea that the "knife is an extension of your hand" encourages a lack of bodily movement, instead relying on the hand to do all your work for you. In these circumstances your not being cut relies on you speed and reflexes, rather than more reliable means. Basically, because you might not be fast enough to counter, parry or block what he is doing. I further believe that this lack of motion largely stems from attempting to extend -- whether unconsciously or intentionally -- the thought process of empty handed fighting into a field where it does not belong, or work.

For reasons beyond the scope of this Web page I prefer the more encompassing and flexible term: The knife is an extension of your will.

What I will say is that if it is an extension of my hand, my body may or may not move. However, if it is instead my will, everything in between my will and my knife will be likely to move to achieve my ends. And that is far more effective for staying alive.



Lie #12 There is such a thing as a master knife fighter

Despite all the fantasy self-defense scenarios so-called "knife experts" concoct in their minds and are always talking about -- where they would be justified in using a knife on another human being -- the flat-out truth is that in 99.9% of the times that a knife is used on another human being it is a criminal act. Not to burst anybody's bubble here, but those famous challenges and death matches that the old maestros engaged in were wildly illegal -- both in the United States AND in the Philippines.

Now having said that I will be the first to point out that hot-headed, young bucks looking to prove themselves will often engage in extremely stupid, dangerous and criminal behavior in the name of pride or anger. But you know what? If they live, they often wind up in jail, if not prison. The law tends to frown on fights, much less duels.

Something Brian Curl, the cameraman on my knife videos and ex-SEAL said to me that I will always remember is "There ain't no such thing as a professional knife fighter." Truer words were never spoken. Nobody gets paid for knife fighting. On top of this, you don't survive multiple knife fights without getting carved up pretty badly yourself. But most importantly, long before you stacked up enough murders to be qualified as a "master knife fighter" you would have found yourself on death row.

So look long and hard at anyone calling themselves a blademaster, knife fighter or knife fighting expert...because more likely than not, it is a self-imposed title that has no bearing on reality. And if he were such a master knife fighter, how come he ain't got more scars and isn't in prison?



Lie #13 That this is a "fight" at all
If you want to live, you don't go in with a "fighting attitude" to any altercation involving weapons.

Weapons take it out of the arena of fighting and put it in the realm of combat.

And if you aren't ready to go there, there is no shame in that. But don't let your pride or anger push you into there, because the rules are totally different, and if you don't know that, then you are the one who is going to get hurt.

If you see a weapon deployed, run. If you stay, don't even think of fighting. It left that three counties back...someone is going to get seriously hurt if you stay. Now the question is, will it be him or you? Or both?


Lie #14 Expect to get cut
Remember that thing called bio-mechanical cutting? I said the major problem with it is on the legal front, but, on the "a knife is going to do a shitload of damage to you" front there's a lot to be said for it. What amazes me is that some people can talk about the damage that their knife will do to an attacker, but at the same time blurt out the old clich?of "expect to get cut" as though getting cut were only a minor inconvenience.

HELLO! Wake up and smell the coffee!!!!!

Where I really hit the roof on this mindset is when I see someone who comes from a empty hand fighting system attempt to "fight" an armed opponent in the same way that he would an unarmed opponent.

The thing is, these same people are the ones who often talk about "expecting to get cut." And then, having said that, they take no effective measures to prevent it from happening! I have literally seen such people wade into a cuisine-art.

Now who ever came up with that term originally was speaking about a very important idea. That is that you will be cut in a blade altercation and that you need not to panic when it happens and that you must continue on to the best of your abilities in order to increase your chances of survival. To that intent and meaning I say "Amen!" I couldn't agree more.

However, like the idea of biomechanical cutting has been bastardized by people into a dangerous misconception, so has this one. In fact, from having watched people who study so-called "blade arts" many of them have apparently taken it to mean allow yourself to be sliced up, making no effective defensive moves in order to try to get in one good hit. Apparently, if you nick him once to his twenty seven slashes, it is an acceptable exchange rate.

The other side of the pendulum swing is however, overly focusing on trying to control his knife arm before entering. Hanging back and trying to catch this fast moving blade so you can safely enter is one of the best ways I know to make getting cut a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This is what really results from trying to extend a "fighting mindset" into weapons combat. It simply just does not work. Would you like to hear our philosophy on this subject?

Trade a cut for a kill, but nothing else.

That's the difference between fighting and combat.



Lie #15 The FMA are the ultimate knife fighting systems
Let me lay it out on the line here. When it comes to knife fighting, they are all fucking dangerous.

There is no "sun source" of knife fighting. There is no land of ultimate knife fighting arts. There is no race who hold the monopoly on the "right way" to use a knife. As I said, I have traveled around the world and seen knife fighting systems from even more places and what I will tell you is that each of them will make you just as dead, just as quick.

What I will be the absolute first to admit is that the FMA have done wonders for organizing and explaining the ideas behind how they do what they do. And for that I take my hat off to them. And I salute and respect the skill and prowess of their eskrimadors, kali gurus and arnis masters. But I draw the line at even sitting quietly when someone tries to elevate one group of fighting skills above all others so they can swagger around saying that they study the ultimate "knife fighting" system. This above my immediate gag reflex when someone -- who has never faced a knife in the hands of someone who wishes him I\'ll -- swaggers around and tells me that he knows everything there is to know about knife fighting because he studies under (fill in the blank).

There is no right way, one way or only way to use a knife...and the more you know about all the different ways the more likely you are to be able to come up with an effective counter if you are attacked in one of those ways. But if you have only studied one system, the odds are against you being able to come up with something that works. And I have to tell you, although Western practitioners like to claim that the FMAs do, those arts don't cover all the ways a knife can be used on you. There is literally a world full of differences out there.

I have said it before and I will say it again: *Nobody* has a monopoly on the truth about knife fighting. The whole of the subject is just too big. Everybody has a slice of the pie. And learning what they have to say about it and how they do it where they are from is the best way for you to increase you chances of survival.



Lie #16 It's easy to disarm an armed opponent
Every time I hear someone say this, I cringe. Because A) they have just told me that they have never dealt with someone intent on trying to kill them. B) Odds are that they are a bully and braggart. And C) If they are teaching people this nonsense they are going to get someone killed.

In a very real sense, someone standing there brandishing a knife is not trying to kill you...he is trying to scare you away. Now I will admit that it is often easier to overwhelm such a person because he is not in attack mode, but it is never easy. Such people can be surprised and often they cannot react in time. However, someone who is genuinely intent on attacking you with a blade is *never* easy to disarm or overcome. And promoting this lie is literally begging to get someone killed - especially if they encounter a committed attacker.

The problem that I have encountered with bullies is that they are very selective on who chose to bully. I have seen individuals who have savaged weaker opponents -- as if by magic -- disappear when trouble starts with true hard-cases. These individuals may have taken blades away from intimidated kids, but somehow they never seem to be around to try it against someone who is an experienced and hardened streetrat or former convict.

So again, proving that the exact choice of words is important we are left with a small, but important modification of what is commonly taught and what needs to be said: The concepts behind disarming an armed opponent are simple, they are not, however, easy -- and neither is the actual disarm itself



Lie #17 You can successfully fight an armed attacker

This entire page has been dedicated to disproving this lie. The main reason it is a lie is that you cannot "fight" an armed opponent. You can survive against one and you might even be able to successfully put him down before he causes you any major damage...but, whatever you do, it must be fast, effective and brutal. If it isn't, then you will not stop him before he causes you major damage.

You cannot stand there and engage in a long, drawn out contest with an armed opponent. If you try to do so, you will lose. It is not a matter of if, but of when.

Simply stated, every the touches you with the knife he will cause serious damage. How can you hope to launch a long drawn out retaliation against him when every time he touches you he causes "biomechanical cutting" on you? You are going to bleed out and cease to function long before your strategy comes to fruition.


Lie #18 Drills teach you how to knife fight
Drills teach principles. They teach ideas. They are the map, not the territory.

Unfortunately, many people mistake the map for the territory. One of the most unrealistic tendencies that drills teach is they do not teach you proper ranging. The object of an attack is to stab/slash your partner. However, often in training you will see people standing back ranging their attack against their partner's stick or their training knife falling at least a foot short of their partner. Furthermore they are not attacking with the same commitment and force level that a real knife assault will occur with. Therefore the training drill, while important is missing several critical components.



Lie #19 You can use a knife on another human being without legal repercussions
I have seen videos by so-called "knife fighting masters" who actually show the fool encouraging his students to slash someone with a knife for trying to slug the student. I have also seen videos where after disarming their attackers with several slashes to the arm, these knife killers proceed to slash their -- no longer armed -- attacker to ribbons. I have stood in a convention hall and seen a martial artist doing a demo, leap back while slashing the weapon arm of his attacker, and then .. after "defanging the snake," he leap back into range and executed a disemboweling move on his ... now... unarmed former attacker. Later, when I asked him about if he understood that any student doing that move would be committing manslaughter instead of "self-defense" his eyes bugged out because he'd never considered how that move would be viewed in court. I have stood in my front room with attorneys and use of force experts and watched a tape on knife fighting where a supposed "expert," not only starts a bar fight, does a suicide move that would have gotten his throat slit and then kneels down and stabs a downed opponent -- in front of witnesses! Actions that everyone agreed would be prosecuted as murder.

As such, don't even get me started on the bozo's who insist their students cut a person multiple times because "one cut may not stop him." Unfortunately, this kind of training often goes awry when the attacker attempts to withdraw and the knife fighter keeps on slashing, even after the ex-attacker has turned his back on the knife fighter. Now, this once upon a time attacker has been slashed many times after he was disarmed and is slashed more on his back while attempting to retreat...guess who is going to go to prison for attempted murder?

A knife is considered a lethal force instrument...and the use of lethal force is *very* narrowly approved. If you use one another human being you had better damned well be firmly within those parameters...if not, then you are -- in the eyes of the law and society -- the bad guy.

Before you even think of picking up a knife for "self-defense" go out and take a course on Judicious Use of Lethal force. Do NOT take any knife fighting experts word on the subject, go to the source lawyers and expert witnesses on use of force.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

SINZA
I have been lucky enough that I have only had a few encounters in life where a knife needed to be involved. Couple of times I have been attacked there was no chance to pull a blade, it just happens too fast and un-expected. Once I had my Silver Shadow 8inch blade dagger that I carried in my 20's and got rushed by two guys, never had a chance to pull it. The only times I was able to use a blade was when I already had my hand on my knife.
And I'll say this...and pay attention...the fact that I already had my hand on my knife ment that I knew something was going down or I was making it happen. Either way I was putting myself in that situation...MY FAULT.
STUPID STUPID STUPID!!!

I'm not going to sit here and tell you how cool I was holding off attackers with my blade...that's just B.S.
The reality was that I was putting myself in danger, and when it got dangerous it was very scary.
I remember one night when I was about 17, me and a buddy snuck out on a tuesday schoolnight and hitchhiked to downtown Seattle. We're down on 1st Ave at 2am smoking weed and driking and 1st Ave is NOT where you want to be at night!! This guy who had been drinking yelled at my friend "You looking at my car?!" and kicked my friend in the head and he went down. He then ran at me "You wanna fight?!" and kicked at me, I blocked. He kicked again and I grabbed his leg and held it. "You gonna fight now?!" I carried a flick blade stiletto at the time, flicked it open...and then thought for a second. I had a open shot and instead of stabbing the guy I dropped his leg and said "No." I was lucky that he just stopped and walked away. I really didn't want to stab someone, still don't.

My point? We were fucking stupid for being downtown in the middle of the night in the scary part of town. Our fault.
Now I have studied knife defence, and I encourage you to also, but try to never use it, getting cut hurts. I've cut others and it's not a proud feeling, more like sick to your stomach.

You guys are weapon guys, that's why you're here. Many of you are knife guys. I'm a knife guy.
In my opinion every man should carry a knife, it's the best tool and the best weapon, I've given many away to friends and strangers.
Protect yourself and others, but don't ever go looking to prove yourself. Don't think you're a badass. Don't put yourself in stupid situations. You'll just get yourself killed.

I carry a blade every day, I have enough knives I could probably carry a different knife for every day of the year. You guys carry knives, and I know you have a lot, I've seen them. We build wristblade, and many have asked about REAL wristblades that can be worn for protection. This kind of thinking is what was mentioned above, you're hoping it will happen so you can 'prove' yourself. This is just stupid. If you walk around with a wristblade you are going to shoot your mouth off and MAKE IT HAPPEN. At that point a few things coud happen. You could stab someone and go to prison. Or maybe when you flick out that wristblade and try to look badass he just shoots you. The first movie to have a wristblade was MARATHON MAN and in the end the guy gets stabbed in the gut with his own blade.

I post this information on knife fighting not so you will be a badass, but so you will NOT try to be a badass.
Protect yourself, the best way is to RUN really fast. NOTHING dishonorable about living to see the next day!


Last edited by SINZA on May 29th 2011, 9:41 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   February 9th 2011, 2:22 pm

Well said Muckah!!! cheers Neutral cheers

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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   February 9th 2011, 2:29 pm

exactly. best way to win a fight is to avoid a fight. sometimes the only winning move is not to play.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   February 9th 2011, 2:43 pm

One of my main weapons training in JKD involves Kali and I do have plenty of blades both for domestic use (culinary, carpentry etc.). as well as the occasional one I put in my weapons collection. I never carry any weapons with me for both legal reasons as well as the fact that I am lucky enough to walk my streets safe without anyone that would try to harm me in any way. Not to mention despite my training I could never bring myself to harm someone that didn't deserve it. However if I did walk the streets with a blade and I did do what you did in a dangerous situation I wouldn't be proud of what I have done. However I would be lucky and relieved to be alive and would be willing to accept the consequences.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   February 11th 2011, 2:12 pm

As for the whole knife fighting styles being largely flash and of no real use in a fight. I will agree partially with that. However, practiced moves like cutting formations, guards, footwork, and distance keeping techniques will save your life. In the event the fight is going to end almost instantly a good side step can make all the difference.

I recommend Cold Steel's American Bowie knife fighting style. They emphasize the importance of keeping distance, and how to close that distance then re-establish it quickly. Thus making you the one doing the cutting and not the one being cut. Most fights with knives and very quickly, so it's important you can do what you need to do to survive quickly.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   February 11th 2011, 9:41 pm

Well said,.... I have only been in two fights in my life, (both unarmed and back in school), and I was always taught to walk away when you can, but if it is something that you can't get away from, then only one will be getting back up.

If it gets to that point, you don't have time to think or plan or showoff, just to react and it will be over quickly one way or another. Your right,... you never know when the other person will have better weapon than you, so it's better to be proficient with one, over lame with many.

Once I have had to pull a weapon in a situation where 3 adults were planning to come into my house after my minor son, and the situation was over in 5 seconds or less. It was all instinct to the situation, and when the immediate threat was removed I was able to withdraw my weapon without anyone getting hurt. Like you said the situation was no longer a threat, so there was no need to go any further.

In that situation my proficiency with my firearm, and confidence in my ability to go to my limits, is what defused the situation, (though all confrontations may not have the same passive outcome that mine did). I do know if the 3 suspects had continued to try and harm my son, I wouldn't have had any second thought about doing what was needed to stop the situation.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   March 16th 2011, 10:33 pm

If you guys are into knife combat....well, let's face it. It's knife killing.
Google piper knife system and find any info or video by Nigel or LLoyd or Nino. It was an honor to train with these guys and through this system I learned very important basics that can save your life in a violent attack.

PIPER is based on the study of the gangs methods of killing in prisons and ghettos of south Africa. It's kinda new and developing fast. I heard that it recently got banned in Germany.



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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   March 17th 2011, 12:21 am

There are only two things you need to know about knife defense.
1) GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE WAY. Side step, don't get tackled, don't meet their momentum head on. It's hard to rapidly change directions. The first step to surviving a knife attack is to move out of the path of the blade.
2) Then block/trap/take advantage of the opening. Make sure you don't expose your vitals to the knife as you do this. Ex: swat with back of the hand, do not expose your wrists while disarming.

That's how I learned knife defense. The proper way to run away, and how no matter what you get away from the blade first. That way if you fuck up your much less likely to die.
The main thing to understand about being attacked with a knife is there is no honor, and there is no pride. It's just you and a killer and you throw chairs, dirt clods, jackets, your wallet... whatever the hell you have. Kick off a shoe or something. Use your belt as a whip... anything. Distract them, blind them, pelt them with shit, their eyes naturally follow the movement. Hit them hard when they are off guard.

You do not want to be in a drawn out knife fight, and you should do whatever you can to give yourself the best shot at not dying.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   May 28th 2011, 5:40 pm

@Sinza The question is could you carry a different knife a year LEGALLY for every day of the year? One thing that really needs to be stressed is who strict the current laws can be. It used to be that to be convicted of a crime, there had to be both an action and an intent. Now a days, there only needs to be an action.
Example:
It used to be, if you pulled out of your driveway, and accidentally clipped someone you didn't see, you wouldn't get sued. On the other hand, if you waited in your driveway, gunning your engine and waiting for someone to walk by...
Now if the aforementioned happened, you could become involved in serious legal proceedings, even though you didn't do it on purpose.

Also, I'd like to put in a little anecdote. I was in the woods with my friend, and we were really bored, and we were in the "it seemed like a good idea at the time" mindset. So we came up with the idea to have a sword fight with some three foot long, one inch diameter sticks. Now, I fenced, so I expected to take him apart. So when it started, I was surprised that in the first round I got my ass kicked. He just ran at me swinging wildly, screaming, and none of my parries did jack. This was all because I had expected him to come at me like another fencer. In the second round, when I knew what to expect, I gave him a reprisal, and more. Needless to say, we both had HUGE bruises the next day. But anyway, this just shows how the sport/lesson version of something can be so COMPLETELY different from the reality.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   May 29th 2011, 7:50 am

cliffordsr wrote:
@Sinza The question is could you carry a different knife a year LEGALLY for every day of the year?

Well...my first responce is that I've been breaking knife carry laws since I was 5.

I never said I was a good role model. SINZA

In my teens I always had a large flick-blade stiletto. (blade over legal length)
In my 20's I carried a Hibbin's Silver Shadow Dagger. (Fixed 9" Blade)
In my 30' I carried a Harkin's Triton tactical OTF. (Switchblade Dagger)

Now I'm in my 40's and I tend to play it a little safer. Now I tend to carry my SOG multitool and I use that for any chores, add to that a pocket folding knife with a legal 3.5" blade...usually a spring assited stiletto design. I have at least a dozen of those to chose from.
If I'm going out at night or to certain areas I'll pack one of my SOG fixed blades, either my Daggert2 or Tech Bowie.



To really answer your question...no. Not in the state that I live in. Most of my knives are automatic or fixed blades.


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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   May 29th 2011, 8:33 am

Not a good role model!? affraid Only a guy as awsome as the Sinz master could even think of a forum that talks about exotic and automatic arm blade weapons. bow

Ok now that the ass kissing is over... Razz I can say the same thing about knife laws, it sometimes works for ya and other times it just gets in the way. cop sword So just make sure you don't get caught. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   May 29th 2011, 9:35 am

SINZA wrote:

Well...my first responce is that I've been breaking knife carry laws since I was 5.



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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   May 29th 2011, 11:13 am

I did get some odd looks once when I was biking, and I had a 15 inch bowie knife sticking out of my pocket, and i almost stabbed myself when a cop car drove by. But I was transferring it to my place of residence from the place of purchase, so I was in the clear.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   July 27th 2011, 12:03 pm

The reality of using a knife for self-defense

If my article on the realities of using a pistol for self-defense put me on the no Christmas card list with some of the pistol packing crowd, this one might do the same for all those that carry a knife for self-defense.

We can only carry so much stuff with us every day, even though many of us have taken to carrying a bag to carry more than mere pockets will allow. Just as if going backpacking, ounces turn into pounds. You need to make decisions based on likelihood of use. In my honest opinion, that means for the average citizen carrying a dedicated knife for self-defense is pretty silly. Now before all my knife collecting and making friends unfriend me from Facebook, let me explain.


The probability of you being in the position to use a knife for self-defense is about the same as using a scoped rifle for the same reason. I am saying this based on the “average” person that shows up to my classes and other classes I have been in.

There was a time where I subscribed to the idea of carrying two types of knives, one for things and one for people. After retiring from police work, I began teaching full time, my life style changed. Basically, I am traveling or at home. Having little respect for a man who does not carry a knife at all times, I would never think of walking out the door without a knife. Usually I have one in my pocket, even in the house. Hell, since leaving the job, my pockets have become considerably lighter.

I still basically categorize knives into either designed for cutting people or things, but now my preference is for knives designed for cutting things. More and more knives have become hard use tools for me. If I am only going to carry one, it is one that is designed to take the abuse of daily cutting chores. In other words, my preference is for knives that are designed as tools first, that could be pressed into service as a weapon, instead of those designed as weapons, that I would hesitate to use as a tool.

Even though some peruse the internet in pursuit of finding the perfect “fighting knife” with discussions over steels, lengths, locks (if God forbid you know so little that you would actually trust your life to a folding knife…joke), I have to make some comments based on my personal experiences investigating edged weapon assaults, and that of my colleagues. Just as it is very unlikely that you will be attacked by someone with “knife fighting” training, it is just as unlikely that they will be using a tool designed as a weapon. Instead it will be box cutter, razor knives, steak/kitchen knives, and screw drivers. Things that will tear up human flesh because they were designed for cutting material several times tougher than human flesh. Add in the animalistic motivation of the attacker, and you can see that their tool only really has to work one time. They can drop it, go to the dollar store or kitchen and get a new one.

It is hard enough as a firearms instructor to teach the decision making process during things like shoot/don’t shoot. Imagine doing the same thing with a knife. Do some scenario based force on force training, and see exactly how often you can come up with situations where the use of a contact distance deadly weapon would be defensible. This along with the problems associated with deploying a knife under stress, continue to whittle down scenarios where you would have time and opportunity to deploy your Death Dealer 2000.

As someone who loves all types of weapons, sadly, I have come to the realization that for the most part, even for a trained person, with a dedicated knife, actually using a knife for self-defense is a fantasy that we love to buy into.


Because of the time we live in, where the need for everyone to be trained in personal protection, this fantasy could prove fatal if it prevents us from our limited time and money on one of the things that is least likely to increase our survivability.


So as not to throw the baby out with the bath water, every one over 10 yrs old (the age at which a Scout can earn his Whittling Chip) should carry a knife. It should be a quality knife, a knife that they can use for all kinds of daily cutting chores. This ensures that deploying it becomes second nature, like whipping out your cell phone. People need to be aware of the usefulness of man’s greatest tool, and in seeing the usefulness our culture returns to the time when the odd person was the one not carrying a knife.

In time, if temperament permits, they can also be educated that the knife that they carry everyday, is also useful for cutting people off of you if the need arises.-George

Written by George Mathius AKA MERCOP
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   July 27th 2011, 6:51 pm

My philosiphy..."If it's a problem that can't be fixed with kind words or bare hands, it's a problem that was never ment to be fixed in the first place."
This only applying to a fight scenario of course. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   July 27th 2011, 8:08 pm

I read all this topic with attention... and I truly can't disagree but on one point: running.

The thing is even if you might have the oppurtunity to run in most situations, there is one, commonly happening circumstance and totally "helpless" situation where you absolutely can't run away anywhere: the subway.

Let's face it: a wagon is an hermetically closed space where you can't run more than a few meters away, depending on where you sit.

In such a situation, you would want tu pull the mergency signal to make the train stop but... if attacked, not only threatened but actually attacked, chances are totally against you and you'll probably end up severely wounded if not dead, even if another passenger found the courage to help, which is really not a common behavior where I live (France, near Paris).

As you pointed out Sinza, you almost never have time to pull out another weapon, given the fact you actually had one (which is, again, unlikely, because people carrying weapons, let alone working weapon, in France are either criminals, paranoids, sociopathic kids or police/military officiers, in this order.

In such a situation, what can you do? I mostly tend to avoid actual fight when I suspect the other guy to carry a weapon. I know, that means I tend to verbally provoke people, especially when they are violently annoying other people and no one even tries to defend them (if they don't just simply look the other way), or begins to smoke in the train and no-one reacts even if it's obviously bugging them. Many people would reasonably think this attitude suicidal and I wouldn't even disagree, but if I don't stand for this, no-one would, and I couldn't live telling myself I should have done something to end it.

So yeah, I admit running is the best thing to do if possible, I just tend to put myself in situations where my only option is to prevent things to go bad. I never got in "knife fights" and I don't want to be involved in one. I usually don't carry any weapon, and the closest thing to one I can sometimes have are canes, cricket bats or chains (occasionally weighted), which are more like accessories that can be used to hurt.

THe point in this post? I'm not sure there really is one. I just wanted to type the ideas coming off my head while reading, mostly because I recently avoided one in the train (mostly because I was too tired, which made me lower my caution versus principles ratio to 2:1 rather than 1:2) and that I don't think boot kicks or bag shielding could have helped me, even if I fight decently. Like it was pointed, theres a big difference between someone using a knife and someone who's not.

That made me think a lot. Not sure it will change anything, but at least it will help me being even more lucid about knife handling.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   July 28th 2011, 11:14 am

First thing I'll say is that if you carry a weapon you should practice drawing that weapon until it's second nature. You shouldn't have to look or fumble around...reach-grab-pull...all in one motion.

So...what can you do if you can't run?

Good question. I myself am too old and out of shape to run (bronchitis...years of smoking). If I ran I would just be killed while out of breath.

There are times I would have a knife in my coat pocket and keep my hand there, so I'd be sitting there with my knife IN MY HAND the whole time. You can also have a blade on a key chain and keep that in your hand, same idea.

As for other ideas....
Learn to fight...or learn to take a beating like a man.
Buy a gun and get a concealed weapons permit.
Carry a extending baton and know how to use it. (Manadnok!)
A air horn!
Sharp pencils!
Stun gun/Taser
...really, anything can be used if it really needs to happen. You would be surprised how much damage/defence you can do with a rolled up magazine/newspaper.

One last suggestion....Don't look like a victim.

It's how you carry yourself. Don't look down, walk with your head high and eyes alert. Don't look scared, even if you are, try to look like you're cool and in control and AWARE.
Don't look people in the eye and then look down, it's a sign of submission. Try and not be looking like a wheeny...I'm not saying you have to dress and look like a badass, just don't look weak.

Do you really need to be on the subway? Can you adjust the time of day/night when you ride? Do you have to be alone?

Canes are nice. Make sure it's a good solid one with a wicked handle made for damage. Don't ever carry a sword cane, just crap IN MY OPINION.

One thing you said..."I just tend to put myself in situations where my only option is to prevent things to go bad."

Stop that.

It's just asking for trouble.

I used to not only NOT back down from a battle, but I would 'kinda' go looking for them. Not that I wanted to be in a fight, but I was always the one to say something, the one who open his mouth because other would not. At times I still do it...I should know better by now.
Yes, we all hate assholes. We all hate it when we follow the rules and then we see others who don't. It's not fair.
But you are NOT the police, you are NOT the train master, and you are NOT the person who got elected to enforce the rules.
Accept that.
Sure...I get it...You're on a subway and it's no smoking and some guy lights up and it's annoying. It's still not your job to say or do anything. Deal with it.

We all break some kind of laws, we make our own choices what laws we follow and which ones we ignore. The last thing I want is some 'person' telling me how to act.

People will offend you, they will be inconciderate, they will be assholes. And for the most part we just have to deal with that.
Now, if someone gets in your face or messes with your stuff...that's a different story.

"I couldn't live telling myself I should have done something to end it."
Learn to get over it.

Unless you or someone is REALLY BEING THREATENED OR HARMED OR ROBBED, then take action. But if someone is just loud, rude, annoying...let it go. It's not worth the hassle. For the most part people will look at you and see that you aren't a cop, soldier, pro wrestler, etc...and just ignore you anyways. What did that accomplish?? Nothing other than the annoying guy is now kinda pissed at you.

I have had many close-calls where someone on a cellphone while driving almost hit me. So when I see someone with a cell phone driving I yell at them from my motorcycle "Get off your cellphone it's illegal!" Most if not all just give me that look and keep doing what they're doing. I know that when I'm breaking a law I know it and (A) I don't care (B) I don't want to hear about it....Fuck off!


So, to wrap this up...and remember it's all just my OPINION.
Don't go looking for battles, you will find too many.
Unless you are a police officer DO NOT try to enforce the rules, NOT YOUR JOB.
People will be assholes and be irritating...learn to deal with it, part of life.
Always have your hand close to your weapon.

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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   July 28th 2011, 11:33 am

Yo Sinz, Thanks for posting this up. I admit I was one of those people who were sure that they could take on a knife fight, but thanks to your original post, I realize how wrong i was. I was almost in a knife altercation and thankfully avoided it. I am more self-aware of my abilities and have moved past the fantasy of the "fight" and am now working on my skills in the "survival". By posting this, you probably gave me a better chance of not getting gutted. Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   July 28th 2011, 12:23 pm

cheers Yeah that thumb up
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   July 28th 2011, 6:43 pm

I would draw an analogy with WWI biplane dogfights.

At first they started with airplanes that were not practical,
Then they evolved into fokker triplanes and sopwith camels
that would turn and twist.

By the end of the war, biplanes were heavy and fast,
Fokker D-VII, S.P.A.Ds, and S.E.-5a.
You were taught to dive thru a formation and fly on thru
If you didn't get your target, pick a new one,
gain altitude and energy, and dive thru again.

The idea of a "dogfight" changed.
I think this is the philosophy behinfd the "fulsom prison rush"
-----------------------

If someone rushes you and stabs you, you're screwed.

in the event of an anticipated knifefight.
Look beyond him, and say "Officer i need some help here. . ."
( a modern version of "your shoe is untied" )
and run, or put some furniture between you and him.

And seriously consider why you were hanging out in a place
where this was a possibility.


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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   July 28th 2011, 6:53 pm

My philosophy is similar to Folsom Prison. If a target presents itself, stab/slash and repeat as needed.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   July 30th 2011, 2:12 pm

Just came home and read the post, kinda liked it, even if I already knew mosst of the things you said, and I sadly have to admit you're right. I'm not the police, military or anything, and unless a major event, I shouldn't open my mouth. I guess I'll try to apply that kind of thinking. Not sure I'll succeed but not sure I'll not, at least I can promise I'll try. At least I'll make everything be only verbal and polite.

Considering the subway, thing is it often happens in broad daylight. Strange but true. Looks like most of the time, people don't expect something to happen at day, even cops. Must admit I saw most problems occuring around 4pm than around 2am. And most of the time, even I didn't expect anything to occur.

On weapons, getting a hand on a gun is pretty difficult in France, carrying one out of very precise circumstances (at a shooting range or when hunting season's open) outside of a trunk is, to my knowledge at least, illegal. Same often goes for knifes, batons, tonfa and knuckle dusters (maybe not as strict on the last one). It might extends on tazers too. Long thing put short, anything that can be consired as an offensive weapon is illegal to carry and will be confiscated if found. So pepper bombs are okay, canes too, sports accessories (if in a sports bag if I recall correctly) and chains (that can pass as clothing). Hell, even our military patrolling in train stations have unloaded guns...

I think I should try to find the exact legislation on weapons and post it here, just to know what you exactly think of this, article by article.

And yes, sword canes are for show, no for use: not good as sword nor canes... simply hate it.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   July 30th 2011, 5:58 pm

I carry this 24/7 and sometimes it's the only blade I might have on me that day.


It has 2 blades, one straight, one saw/serrated. They both are spring-assist, open 1/3 and it open the rest of they way itself. Both can lock open and closed and both can be open when the tool is in the folded up 'closed' position.
So, pull it out and snap open a blade. These multi-tools are legal to carry pretty much everywhere. It's a tool, not a weapon of any kind. It's screwdrivers and pliers.....with a blade or two.

Just saying...you could probably wear this anywhere and nobody will have a issue.

AND....they are useful as Hell! I use mine all the time.
This and my new smartphone strapped to my belt are 24/7 carry...best tools I own.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   August 1st 2011, 4:47 am



...My brotha
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   November 7th 2011, 6:17 pm

A few words
"Do what you need to do to survive, without repercussions."
and that's all that needs to be said.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   November 8th 2011, 11:51 pm

@Sinza/wolfie:
What model of multi-tool is that? Might have to put it on my christmas list.

On the article, great post. I'm lucky that my maestro in my weapons class taught me the same things that this article says, and he had the scars to back it up. One thing that he told me (and by extension, the class) was: "Do you really want to give away a pound of yourself to take down all 200 pounds of your opponent?" One pound can be an eye, or a couple fingers, or any number of things that leave you unable to defend yourself as well as you could otherwise. The best type of knife fighter is one who never needs to test what he learned in combat.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   November 9th 2011, 6:19 am

Leatherman surge, black oxide.
http://www.amazon.com/Surge-Black-Oxide-Nylon-Sheath/dp/B001GH0GP0


I carry one in my glovebox at all times with some other useful accessories including:

The extended bit driver, black oxide - gives your screwdriver tool extra reach, and makes it able to take regular bits!
http://www.amazon.com/BIT-DRIVER-EXTENDER-BLACK-FOR/dp/B004QXEISC


The Leatherman bit assortment kit - 40 bits that will fit in your screwdriver tool slot with the extended bit driver and can be used to do repairs on damn near anything (and it's pretty damn cheap)
http://www.amazon.com/Leatherman-931014-40-Bit-Assortment-Drivers/dp/B003E1QPZG


And The pocket clip/lanyard, black oxide attachment. I use the lanyard because it's a bit heavy to clip down and letting it float around in my pocket with the lanyard hanging out is the quickest way to get it out and not feel the weight as much
www.amazon.com/Leatherman-934855-Quick-Release-Lanyard-locking/dp/B00125FKXE


Edit: you can also go with the same version but in stainless, the black oxide does wear a little bit on your hands at first but I prefer it.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   November 9th 2011, 6:38 am

Although Sinza's tool is the SOG b67-n
http://www.amazon.com/SOG-Specialty-Knives-B67-N-Assist/dp/B001DRLK8K




And while it looks a lot like the leatherman surge black oxide they are two completely different knives. The Sog has a center divider which they claim helps secure the tools closed and keeps them in the open position better or something but in my experience it just gets in the way. Also the SOG's exterior knives are power assisted while the Leatherman's knives are not. However a bulky heavy duty multitool is going to draw slower than a waved specialized defensive blade so the assisted feature isn't that useful in my opinion. To be fair if weight was extremely limited or I could not carry a main blade I would certainly consider the SOG. However the SOG doesn't have all the bells and whistles the Leatherman has and as a tech I use the bits very often. Also the SOG is about $20 cheaper even though the quality is very similar and while the Leatherman has many more options (really love the lanyard ring) the sog has assisted opening so the SOG is a better value but the Leatherman has more functionality.

The two knife making companies are both known for making great multitools (Leatherman just makes them better Razz ). They have a very love-hate kind of brotherly thing going on.

Edit: but between you and me the deciding factor was that the SOG doesn't have any scissors and Leatherman makes OUTSTANDING scissors.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   November 9th 2011, 12:25 pm

I've always been a stainless kinda guy with my blades. Oxide layers and paint come off with time, so I find it less practical for my tastes. Plus, it's about time I upgraded to a better Leatherman. My old one from my Cub Scout years has seen better days.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   November 9th 2011, 4:50 pm

I got it because black oxide makes the blades more rust resistant, and so far this has held true.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   November 14th 2011, 4:47 am



:)
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   November 14th 2011, 4:56 am

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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   November 16th 2011, 4:57 am

I thought I might add another "Lie" to the list.
althought I have no credentials or experience.

Lie #21
That you can Throw a knife and effectively kill a person
when he is paying attention to you.

Now I'm sure if you get a sharp enough knife
and the guy doesn't see it coming,
can't put pressure on the wound
could bleed out, eventually,
maybe pretty fast with a neck wound.
But it seems a low probability.

I have thrown a lot of knives, both folders and sheath knives.
From gentle toss to baseball pitch screamers.
And IT IS HARD to to do it on the spur of the moment.
Even after a week of non-practice,
you lose your sense of distance.

I used to walk railroad tracks, and try "sticking it"
22 ties away, 30 ties away, long hail mary lobs away.
I consider those "gentle tosses" even at 6 car lengths
I was matching the flips with the distance,
and getting "sticks" with just enough penetration
to keep it upright

There used to be a big old wooden barn wall I threw cheap
sykes fairbairn commando knives at.
I started by trying to "control the flip" to match the distance.
and ended up throwing hard as I could
and stepping back and forth, until it stuck.
I didn't care where,
as long as it stuck in the "broad side of a barn".
(I bent up 2 knives this way, still have one,
brazed /welded back together a few times)
it got to the point where I "knew" just how far I had to be.
and I could stroll up to a telephone pole and stick it ,
cold, first throw.

but if you've ever played catch with a baseball,
you know you can see a fast pitch coming
and lean aside to get your glove behind the ball.

Your target victim, just has to put his hand up,
or step back, or step aside.
and you've thrown away your knife.
He might be bleeding, but probably not torso, neck or face.
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   November 16th 2011, 2:44 pm

i dont know there are some experts that can do it on a whim....but you are right it is hard i'v tried
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   November 16th 2011, 4:19 pm

A major police dpt did a study on this a number of years ago and the film is still avalable to watch you just have to search 21foot rule. In the film I saw 50 officers (one at at time) were told to enter a room with a suspect thought to be stealing luggage. Upon entering the room and identifying them selves the suspect would jump up and run across the room with a marker knife. Only 5 officers managed to draw and only 2 of those got wild shots of with their training weapons. All officers left the room with a big black sharpie mark across their face and neck.

If some one wants to atack you they will, and odds are you won't have time to deploy any type of weapon.

Another intresting one came from a camp I attended a fiew years ago. Now my church has a camp for retreates, youth mentoring, etc. We hold classes and events on anything a member wants to teach. One of oure LEOs decided to bring his training knives up one weekend and after some basics there were round robin matches. This one kid about 17, foot ball player was beating every oponent and getting really cocky too. So his 14yo cousin steps up and takes the training knife in her off hand and gets ready. Now he's gettin a good chuckle out of this until.. The next thing we know his knife is on the ground, he's holding his hand and she's still 5ft away. What no one noticed was that while she'd been sitting at the base of a willow tree watching she had pulled up 8ft of soft flexable root and this Jr Miss Rodeo compeditor was verry good with a whip.

The point is you never know what someone will have or their intentions till it is too late.

Growing up in a rougher part of town I myself have been attacked with knives 4 times, and bats and misc other weapons a dozen more. How I am still alive is testamant not to my fighting skill, but instead speaks of my ability to keep distance and obsticals betwene me and my attacker. A table, a chair, a trash can, a car, a bush keep somting betwene you no matter how small or flimsy. When the other guy is armed and on the attack there is no shame in avoidance and escape. Worry about keeping your skin intact, not busting heads. There's a time for that later if you make it to later.
Stalling by avoidance does work, most attackers want to be over and done with it before attracting attention. the longer you can avoid and stall the greater you chance for survival even if there is no true escsape route.
Yes when I was 9 I was traped in a locked apt with a knife wielder and you would be amazed how a panicked adrenelin rush can mess with evreyday tasks like working an unfimilar double deadbolt. So I know about the zero escape route senerio first hand. Flailing wildly can be efective, I had my backpack.
My first encounter with a weapon was almost my last, I learned my lessons hard and fast. Looking back I think of all the stupid choices that led to that moment, I wanted to play nintendo so bad I didnt think whose house I was going in. Im from the country I never encountered the group bullying and attacks of I encountered daly in the city. Survival was learning how to run, how to fight and how to choose which.
Now I know how to watch out, my wife says I can be parinoid, I say Im just expierenced with some of lifes harsher lessons.


Last edited by NoaIsumi on November 16th 2011, 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : sp)
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PostSubject: Re: ~~Knife Fighting Realities~~   February 28th 2012, 1:29 pm

I have a love for the art of bladesmithing, and the idea of making a switchblade knife, largely for the hell of it, drew me to this forum. It is not however a reasonable thing to carry.

Myself, I always depended on armor in my younger years. You don't have to draw armor, you don't have to be a skilled fighter (though it probably doesn't hurt), it generally is not considered a lethal weapon and if you turtle up you can normally de-escalate a situation by letting the other person punch themselves out. I have had would be idiots just give up on violent solutions after breaking their pool cues over the shoulder of my jacket or realizing that 12 gauge steel really hurts to punch.



Of course these days, I depend on being old and sane. Not getting into the fight in the first place is the easiest way to not get hurt or have to explain your actions to a jury. If you have enough self respect not to be baited down the level of the person yelling at you, 90% of fights can be avoided.
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