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 Choosing A Knife

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PostSubject: Choosing A Knife   February 10th 2011, 4:53 pm

Quote :
Temper is a weapon we hold by the blade
James M Barrie

Choosing A Knife
By Marc 'The Animal' Macyoung

On this page:
A Knife Is A TOOL!
Knife vs. Gun
Armed Society
Selecting A Knife


I am constantly asked by people "What's the best knife for self-defense?"

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but seeking a simplistic answer to a complex issue is going to
a) Cost you a lot of money
b) Make someone else a lot of money
c) Get you raped in prison.

There's a lot of macho advertising, marketing and internet touching yourself when it comes to 'tactical knives,' 'fighting folders,' and combat blades. This is an extension of the whole 'knife fighting' market and idealizing knife combat that is being pandered by self-proclaimed knife experts. What's worse is they are selling these illegal and dangerous fantasies as -- and I use this term loosely -- self-defense.

Since I do expert witness work in court cases involving knife crimes, homicides and assault with a deadly weapon cases(1), I have a slightly different approach to the subject. Namely:

If you're looking for a knife for self-defense, you're setting yourself up on points A-C

If you go down this road and buy a tactical fighter, a combat ready knife or some wicked looking hooked fighting knife designed by a master knife fighter ...hopefully you'll only get screwed on points A & B.

A Knife Is A TOOL!
Let's start with this important fact.

Tools do things your hand, fingers and teeth can't. You can't hammer a nail with your fist, you can't cut down a tree with your fingers you can't carve with your teeth. As such, tools allow you to do a variety of jobs and applications. The key word here is variety.

A weapon on the other hand is a modified tool. These modifications make it only good for one thing. In exchange for this specialization, it is useless as a tool. For example, a dagger is a double-edged blade that allows cutting in either direction. This modification removes your ability to put your thumb/finger on the back of the blade ... a critical component in tool use.

Can a tool be used as a weapon? Yes. But the point here is that it is ALWAYS an improvised weapon. As such, it will NEVER be as over-all effective at the task as an item specifically designed as a weapon. Can it still kill? Yes any tool can be abused in this manner. But the design of the tool is not for killing. It lacks the specific modifications necessary to make it a weapon.

Let's put this in plain English. Hanging words like tactical, combat ready, combative, commando, urban warrior or some macho and cool sounding name on a knife will only do two things:
1) Raise the price
2) Give the prosecution ammo against you because you were carrying
a 'fighting knife. (As in if you weren't planning to stab someone why were
you carrying such a scary and wicked knife?)

So the first standard for choosing a knife is know that you are buying a tool, NOT a weapon. 99.999% of what you are going to be using it for is as a tool. That should dictate your purchasing decision.

Knife vs. Gun
People who are obsessed with 'self-defense' often want to carry knives because they are uncomfortable with carrying a gun. This is like saying "I'm more comfortable with The Plague than Ebola," both will kill.

In the eyes of the law a gun and a knife are both considered lethal force instruments. That means the same rules about when you can legally use them, under what circumstance their use is justified.

Let me state, for the record, you do NOT get the training on when to use a knife, when NOT to use a knife from a martial arts school, knife fighting/Filipino Martial Arts seminar or on the internet. You get this specialized training ONLY through taking courses designed to inform you about the complexities of the subject (e.g. The Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network)

I cannot stress this idea enough, especially if you are thinking of carrying a knife for 'self-defense.'

One of the things that is important is YOU must know what self-defense really is, NOT what you think it is. Acting on what you think self-defense is while holding an item will get you into deep trouble. Weapons are like power tools, mistakes happen faster and when they do, they are bloody.

So if you still are thinking about buying a knife to defend yourself, you need to look into and get training about what is and what ISN'T self-defense (and the most common mistakes people make when it comes to claiming it). That training is MUCH more important than what kind of knife you have.

Armed Society
Another important piece of equipment to have when it comes to carrying a knife for self-defense is this:
Miss Manners: A Citizen's Guide To Civility
Yes, I just sent you a link to a book on etiquette. Not only will it help to keep you from being hassled by the cops for carrying a knife, but it does wonders for keeping you out of conflicts where you'd be tempted to ram a knife into someones guts. One of my favorite quotes is from Robert Heinlein "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

Bottom line is anytime you put a knife into your pocket, strap on a gun or take control of an item that can take a human life, then you must also take on a higher level of responsibility. It is no longer about you, it is about the effects your actions have on others. You WILL be held accountable for your actions, especially if you use it on someone.

And a good starting point is manners. Manners as a daily thing, even. Not only do they help you avoid getting into violent situations, but they do wonders for your career and personal relationships.

I just worked a case wouldn't have happened if everyone had been better behaved. And the guy -- even though it was self-defense -- was arrested and charged with murder. (He took a plea bargain for 8 years over killing the guy because he'd done some other stupid stuff that weakened his SD case.)

What a lot of people don't understand when they fixating on getting a weapon for defending themselves is that they are taking on the responsibility of killing someone else. So how does this apply to manners?

Ever wonder where manners came from? Do you believe that good manners is a sign of weakness and vulnerability? If you do, then you are absolutely wrong. In a world where everyone was armed, squabbles often turned deadly and insults turned into duels. Manners are a way for armed people to co-exist without having to kill each other.

And if you are carrying a knife, you have to join that crowd. Not only does your life depend on it, but so too do other people's.

Selecting A Knife
When it comes to buying a knife I always tell people to take their seeing eye dog. Because they are going to go blind.

You're not going to see brand name, maker or manufacturer. You're not going to see shape, coolness, swept lines, wicked points or anything. And the biggest thing you're not going to see is all the 'tactical' bullshit and advertising.

You buy a knife because of how it feels.

Everyone has a different weight, balance and handle preference. Personally I like shorter, thicker blades with the weight in the back and the balance in the handle. My wife prefers longer blades with the weight in the tip. My ex preferred a handle with finger grooves, etc., etc..

The importance of this is because first and foremost a knife is a TOOL! It is not a weapon, it is not for self-defense. It's for doing a job you can't do with your fingers. You're going to be using it for what is 99.999% of the time. As such you need something that feels good in your hand.

You don't need a big knife or a tactical whatever. And you sure'n hell don't need an automatic or assisted opening blade. Those can and will get you into trouble. Oh BTW, that tool element is really important when it comes to talking to the cops. They must sense that you consider a tool first. If they get the vibe that you're carrying a weapon, they will make your life ... interesting.

What you need is a tool that fits most comfortably in your hand so you can constantly, easily and most importantly safely use it on a daily basis. Past that, everything else is just advertising.

Oh yeah, one more thing. You also need to look into -- not only STATE laws -- about what kind of knife (or size) you can carry, but also look into municipal codes of the city you live in.

Again, I want to repeat part of this for you guys who ask and talk about wearing real wristblades. LEARN THIS!


Let's put this in plain English. Hanging words like tactical, combat ready, combative, commando, urban warrior or some macho and cool sounding name on a knife will only do two things:
1) Raise the price
2) Give the prosecution ammo against you because you were carrying
a 'fighting knife. (As in if you weren't planning to stab someone why were
you carrying such a scary and wicked knife?)


O.k...there is NO WAY you are going to convince the police and judge that a wristblade is a tool.
IT'S A WEAPON, NOTHING ELSE. AND YOU'LL LOOK LIKE A TOTAL PSYCHOPATH TO A NORMAL PERSON FOR WEARING ONE!
If you wear one you WANT it to happen, you will MAKE it happen...then you're fucked.

Seriously guys...I'm posting this information so you guys who, for lack of a better term, don't know shit about the realities of real violence, will learn something and stay alive.
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FrakMunkie
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   February 10th 2011, 5:05 pm

And again.

Even in a court of law, carrying either one is a federal offence in most places.

A knife is to be used for what it where it is meant to be.
A filleting knife in a fishing tackle box.
Butchers knife in a butchers.
Throwing knives in a training facility.

Doesn't mater how or why you carry it. It's a knife.
Knives are a weapon whether by intent or not, they are dangerous and are assumed to be a weapon immediately no matter what.

Small things like a letter opener in your hand count as weapons, hell just carrying a broken knife to a bin and a cop sees you holding it but not seeing a bin, or walking into a house he'll pull you up.

The idea is not to carry one at all.
In my case, one for defensive purposes only, and by defensive, the guy either has to pull one on me AND threaten me for me to draw mine, or he must actually stab me for me to act.

Doesn't matter how you intend its use, it IS A WEAPON no matter the circumstances as knives are a class 2 weapon. "Inflicts bodily damage, can also be used to stab through objects and is a sharp blade, or sharp tip."

We use them because we must in certain places, didn't say I wanted to, I find no joy in holding a knife, but having one and not needing it is better than needing it and not having one.
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   February 10th 2011, 9:09 pm

FrakMunkie wrote:
A knife is to be used for what it where it is meant to be.
A filleting knife in a fishing tackle box.
Butchers knife in a butchers.
Throwing knives in a training facility.

The same is true here in the U.S.A., but with a little creative thinking you can get around the laws.

For Example......

If you carry a baseball bat in your car,.... it's considered a weapon, and you can go to jail.

If you carry a baseball bat WITH A BASEBALL AND A GLOVE in your car,.....it's considered "Sports Equipment", and in most cases you won't go to jail.


I guess the trick is to find something you can use to defend yourself with that would never be considered a weapon in the first place. Figure out a way to defend yourself with a Baby Bottle, or a bright Pink Plastic Flamingo,.... that way if you ever have to go to court, you will have a good chance of convincing a jury that you had no intention of ever using the object as a weapon.



Just imagine how funny it would be when the prosecuting attorney holds up a pink flamingo, and tries to call it a weapon! A person MUST have been fighting for their life if they had to resort to using THAT as a weapon!




Shadowhound



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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   February 11th 2011, 3:39 am

FrakMunkie wrote:
And again.

Even in a court of law, carrying either one is a federal offence in most places.

A knife is to be used for what it where it is meant to be.
A filleting knife in a fishing tackle box.
Butchers knife in a butchers.
Throwing knives in a training facility.

Doesn't mater how or why you carry it. It's a knife.
Knives are a weapon whether by intent or not, they are dangerous and are assumed to be a weapon immediately no matter what.

Small things like a letter opener in your hand count as weapons, hell just carrying a broken knife to a bin and a cop sees you holding it but not seeing a bin, or walking into a house he'll pull you up.

The idea is not to carry one at all.
In my case, one for defensive purposes only, and by defensive, the guy either has to pull one on me AND threaten me for me to draw mine, or he must actually stab me for me to act.

Doesn't matter how you intend its use, it IS A WEAPON no matter the circumstances as knives are a class 2 weapon. "Inflicts bodily damage, can also be used to stab through objects and is a sharp blade, or sharp tip."

We use them because we must in certain places, didn't say I wanted to, I find no joy in holding a knife, but having one and not needing it is better than needing it and not having one.

I politely disagree. Are you from the UK? A knife or anything else is a tool until you use it as a weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   February 11th 2011, 6:39 am

Charlie Mike wrote:


I politely disagree. Are you from the UK? A knife or anything else is a tool until you use it as a weapon.

Actually I'm from Australia.
Any sharp implement on the body is a weapon here, no matter it's true purpose, or whatever else you carry with it.
No matter what we get pulled up for them.
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   February 11th 2011, 6:59 am

In my state, there is no state law on blade length except when it comes to switchblades and those must have a blade less than 2" if you want to carry them outside your house. Other than that, all fixed blades must be carried visibly.
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   February 11th 2011, 1:45 pm

There are several realities you have to face when carrying a knife.

1) If you choose to, you are required to use it when you could potentially save lives with it. This is true of any weapon. (Not so much by law, but if you fight for your weapons rights and carry a weapon, then it's your responsibility to carry it whenever possible, and use it when you can help others.)

2) A better weapon, or a worse weapon does not in any way guarantee the outcome of a fight. 99% of the time a fight with weapons will end in the first few split seconds. This is almost entirely surprise and luck and very little to do with skill and armaments. You need to accept that a thousand dollar knife and years of training might do completely nothing for you.

3) Better to be in front of a jury than dead. Well... yea, but why not avoid both? Spyderco goes to great lengths to make knives that are legal in anywhere from Germany to England to California. If you have local laws to take into consideration no one will keep you out of trouble like spyderco. Carrying an illegal knife, then using it will make you look horrible no matter what you do with it.

4) When in any legal situation YOU DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE. ANYTHING you say to the police can be used against you, and CAN NOT be used to get you out of jail. If you say anything to the police then you had better great them with "I feared for my life." followed quickly by "I'd like a lawyer now please."

5) Lastly, for the love of god, don't stand there with a weapon out over a corpse. Nothing will get you shot faster. When you are done make sure your injured or "apparently dead" bad guys weapon is out of his reach, and put yours away as you wait for police. Also don't assume anyone called them, people are idiots.
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   February 11th 2011, 3:05 pm

Quote :
Throwing knives in a training facility.

What? Neutral scratch Laughing Rolling Eyes

Quote :
A knife or anything else is a tool until you use it as a weapon.

100% CM

Or when asked by Police "Okay We can see its a walking stick and You need it due to Your leg being in plaster...but if someone tried to rob or attack You, Would You use it in Self-Defence?" Answer with a "Yes" and they WILL nick You regardless!!!

Bill Sykes
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   February 11th 2011, 3:18 pm

billsykes wrote:


What? Neutral scratch Laughing Rolling Eyes



100% CM

Or when asked by Police "Okay We can see its a walking stick and You need it due to Your leg being in plaster...but if someone tried to rob or attack You, Would You use it in Self-Defence?" Answer with a "Yes" and they WILL nick You regardless!!!

Bill Sykes

Seriously? I would ask them if they intend to use that brain for anything besides basic addition and if they answer "yes" nick them for public endangerment.
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   February 11th 2011, 3:42 pm

Laughing

Bill Sykes
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   February 16th 2011, 7:50 pm

shadowhound wrote:


If you carry a baseball bat in your car,.... it's considered a weapon, and you can go to jail.

If you carry a baseball bat WITH A BASEBALL AND A GLOVE in your car,.....it's considered "Sports Equipment", and in most cases you won't go to jail.




Just imagine how funny it would be when the prosecuting attorney holds up a pink flamingo, and tries to call it a weapon! A person MUST have been fighting for their life if they had to resort to using THAT as a weapon!




Shadowhound



.

That's hilarious! And pretty brilliant at the same time! You could make your knife pink, and print a Hello Kitty design on it, and make it kind of blunt (if you're actually stabbing at people you don't need a razor anyway. Much more chance of hurting yourself accidentally, right?) You could even stencil the name of your kid in it! They're never going to catch you on that one.

However, I do agree, most of the time, it's just not worth going to jail. If you could pick now, being the loser of the battle, getting your ass kicked and spending a few weeks in the hospital, or winning, and having to live for the rest of your life with guilt of killing another human? (And that's even assuming you'd win, which is never certain.)

I know what I would pick. I would punch and kick back, but I wouldn't pull a knife.
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   June 27th 2012, 2:02 am

When it comes to self defense, or "protection"... I'm an auto mechanic, so I keep a lot of large tools in my car loosely on the passenger floor board (a large breaker bar and stuff like that). Although I personally would not ever use a weapon unless I absolutely feared for my life or the lives of my friends and family, and I was either A: Out numbered, or B: Completely out gunned.

A few years ago I carried knives on me all the time (I was in a low place at the time), everything from butterfly knives (The laws only state that you cannot carry them concealed in most states), to a paratrooper knife, to the SOS knife I have now. Now, realizing I'm not someone somebody would deliberately target, I only collect different kinds of knives. Lacking funds though, I'd prefer to make my own (hence how I ended up here).
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   June 27th 2012, 2:22 am

In all honesty as a mechanic I would contact a member called Charlie Mike. He makes a great kydex hammer/wrench sheath you could put on your belt. It just holds the tool at your side until you tug it out and then you are fairly well armed with a lump of metal. If the police have anything to say about you are a mechanic with a toolbelt, just part of your job.
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   June 27th 2012, 5:26 pm

That sounds awesome. I may do that jumping
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   June 28th 2012, 12:46 am

Here is a link to his Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/FTWCMknives

He has made a few sales around the forums and has been with us for over a year so I'll vouch for his trustworthiness. Besides a kydex hammer molded sheath and belt loop should be under $100 easily I would imagine so it isn't a very high risk trade considering he has sold knives worth multiple hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   June 28th 2012, 1:13 am

Also... My youtube link is in my signature line below all my posts.
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   June 28th 2012, 1:42 am

this was the build I was suggesting, but an open carry belt attachment:
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PostSubject: Re: Choosing A Knife   June 29th 2012, 12:32 am

I'm currently EDC'ing this "little" blade. knife in head





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